To Balance or not

[Cpt Rick]

Disagree guys.

If the whole system isn't balanced, yer wasting yer money on hype and needless cables!

MusicMixers said it more bluntly than I did, break the chain, and it's meaningless. Stick with 1/4" unbalanced for standard DJ noise floor.

If not, you might just as well plug an 8-track into a mono-block... (GIGO - Garbage In - Garbage Out)!

[ November 26, 2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Cpt Rick ]

[MusicMixers]

Capt Rick hit the nail on the head, are you another trons tech from days gone by? With 26 years in avionics I have found that any system change from start to finish interupts signal flow and actually can (although usually not enough to notice) cause more noise than you had to begin with. This is most especially true with any type of cables.

For example: If you had the extra noise from unbalanced going into a mixer, and then balanced leaving it, all noise generated from those poor cables will be seen as signal and passed right through the balanced lines. And, I still think the subtle difference balancing makes in most cases is much more noticable in a studio where volume levels tend to be lower and the quality of the speakers are usually superior. Live events at higher volume levels would take a super ear to even notice a hint of difference. Using balanced cables in my opinion for a DJ rig is just for peace of mind and a superior connection. I have tried both many times on the same system and have never heard any difference at all in my own rigs.

[DJ Dr. Drax]

I agree any noise added get's passed on down the line. No doubt, BUT that doesn't negate using balanced lines as much as possible. BTW the noise is never heard at volume, even low volume with program material. It is in the absence of program material that you hear it.

I have designed systems to operate in VERY noisy environs, try keeping a clean signal around a high energy, high voltage pulsed laser. Balanced signal lines accomplishes more than any other single thing you can do.

On the Nevada Test site Pre RS485 days, we ran cable for miles, balanced, yet the input was from an unbalanced source converted thru a balancing stage. but the input was unbalanced.

The issue is with the additional antennae that is provided downstream. Ideally the whole system should be. If you buy better gear, & demand it from them they will supply it. It is one of the reasons that many better decks & mixers are now offering digital I/O.

I have more than enough actual real world electronics engineering & application experience to validate my viewpoint. Both in Studio, out, & in other industries. I have spent the better part of almost 3 decades involved with electronics signal processing, both using & designing & debugging.

I could build all my own gear at the component level if I chose to if that gives you any idea where my experience comes from.

[ December 04, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: DJ Dr. Drax ]

[Steve Fernino]

Too bad they are still using RCA ins and outs on all DJ mixers and DJ CD-Players. While many do now provide XLR and or 1/4 balanced Main outs....the Source inputs are all consumer level. It is a shame really.

I would like to see a move to all balanced...at least on the higher end equipment. That is just my opinion of course!

[ December 04, 2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: DJ Idea Sharing ]

[DJ Dr. Drax]

Actually Steve,

That is what I was hinting at with the increasing use of Optical interconnects, or SPDIF, These are both even better. So in a sence they are.

[Steve Fernino]

Drax,

Just re-read your post and picked up on that line. I missed it the first time around.

Still not enough for my liking, though it is a start.... It would be nice for the Rane's, Pioneer's etc to lead the way. Denon has embraced this to a degree, I just do not like their Mixers.... I prefer my MP44. And Yes, I have tried them.

A move to digital coaxial or balanced as a standard on everything but non-entry level or at least on mid-high to high end would be an improvement.... It just doesn't seem likely in any kind of a decent time frame.

Gonna go a little off-topic here....

It amazes me how far ahead the 12V Car Audio industry is compared to the DJ industry sometimes. Car audio took the lead on many things...some was by necessity as the car is one of the noisiest and most difficult environments on the earth to hook up an accurate or noise-free sound system.

Pioneer and Denon are both players in that market...However Pioneer is a much bigger player than Denon is there.

Car audio debuted anti-shock and antiskip CDs and slot cd loading years ahead of our industry.... They even were the first to have mp3 on CDrom players... I had a discussion with an industry rep back in '93 and he told me all about mp3...(While we were discussing DCC, MD, and DAT)he just didn't call it that.
He told me how the future was going to be compressed data on a small digital "card storing 100 or more songs each". He was pretty close, as there are "cards" today that store mp3 audio.

In fact I have a system called DDL (Direct Digital link) by Eclipse that uses all digital cables....and even had pink noise, RTA, and digital time alignment....Hell I even have a DAT player. I bet some don't even know what that is...LOL

This system came out in 1991.
Now Balanced XLR and / or Coaxial Digital is not uncommon on a lot of Car Audio equipment.... In fact, for years, companies like USD have been modifying RANE equipment to 12v for use in that environment for just that reason....Go Figure.

[DJ Dr. Drax]

DAT? I know but will let the query go for a while.

Personally I think even balanced will have lost out to digital I/O or even fiberlinks. The SNR is better by almost an order of magnitude.

[MusicMixers]

Lots of good info in this thread everyone and your inputs and opinions are always welcome!

I totally agree digital ins and outs are the wave of the future.

I meant no offense to anyone's "qualifications" but just so you know it was my full time profession for 26 years to troubleshoot and repair to NASA specs; I am still qualified to instruct micro miniature repair classes to NASA specs though I would hate working under a microscope again. Have built O-scopes and TV's over the years: so long ago that I would not care to try it today, LOL.. Besides, replacements are now much cheaper than repairs so no market for this old dinosaur's talents anyway! EXCEPT when I want to repair my OWN gear, LOL...

[DJ Dr. Drax]

SO that means that you probably have a Tek 465 room warmer. wink

[KJDJ]

Optical interconnects hummm.
As a person that deals with Fiber and connectors everyday I got to tell ya. When a connector gets dirty or scratched your screwed. The key will be to not connect and reconect optical connectors often.
I can't see how optical interconnects will be reliable with the road abuse Mobile DJ equpment has to take.
Give you an example, the procedure I have to follow in a telephone switchroom is every time a connector is reconnected it must be cleaned.
Static is created when you unplug a connector then dust is drawn to it.